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Published 11/29/06


"We Americans are trying to give Iraqis independence from Sunni

minority elites.


There's only one real problem in Iraq: the violent Sunni minority

that ruled by putting Iraqis in mass graves, hasn't stopped just

because they're out of power now. The Shia are tired of being

slaughtered and have started to fight back. Most people in the

country feel Iraq would be better off if all the Sunnis left -- and

some are actively pushing them out.


Meanwhile, the Kurds in the north have built a safe, economically

booming area that will shortly be the other Israel: an oasis of

sanity, democracy and civilization in the Mideast desert of

oppression, religious crazies, and terror.


All war is not bad. America needed it's civil war to end slavery.

With or without Western intervention Iraq would have seen civil war

at some point to deal with this Sunni dominance. The question for

history is whether or not western intervention made things worse

than they would have been otherwise. It is doubtful that even today

most Shia and Kurds would arugue that the fall of Saddam was worth

paying some price. If you compare the price the American people

paid during our civil war the Iraqi situation comes into

perspective today."

Sure it's all about oil.

The Shiites have it and the Kurds have it while the Sunni minority
doesnt have it but think they should have it and are killing Shiites to
get it while the Shiites are fighting to keep it.

johnnyanon3000@hotmail.com wrote:

The ability of some americans to completely miss the obvious never
ceases to amaze me. America could not care less about democracy in Iraq
or anywhere else, Americas only interest is America, always has been
and always will be. America has one interest and one interest only in
Iraq and thats OIL and the money and power it brings, let us not forget
that America has consistently undermined many demodratic states simply
because their people democraticaly chose to elect leaders who would not
toe the American line, take for example Venezuela and Nicaragua. Lets
see how much America respects democracy if Daniel Ortega is elected
president in what is universally accepted as a free and fair election.
Lets see how much America respects democracy if by some miracle the
puppet goverment of Irag decide at the stroke of a pen to increase
THEIR countrys wealth by roughly 30% by selling THEIR oil in euros
rather than dollars. This war is purely and simply a business
transaction, your country has spent hundreds of billions of dollars and
is set to spend hundreds more and it is not doing that so some
tribesman in the middle of a desert can rest easy in his hammock that
his vote will count the same as everyone elses, all those hundreds of
billions will need to be repaid with considerable interest and you can
put the house on that one!

"PJ O'Donovan" <Xentinc@aol.com> wrote:
rec.travel.europe.

**** off Peej.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

<Lets see how much America respects democracy if by some miracle the
puppet goverment of Irag decide at the stroke of a pen to increase
THEIR countrys wealth by roughly 30% by selling THEIR oil in euros
rather than dollars

Johnnyanon>.

Your argument .is convoluted. You obviously cannot comprehend the logic
underlying international exchange rates.

<Lets see how much America respects democracy if by some miracle the
puppet goverment of Irag decide at the stroke of a pen to increase
THEIR countrys wealth by roughly 30% by selling THEIR oil in euros
rather than dollars

Johnnyanon>.

Your argument .is convoluted. You obviously cannot comprehend the logic
underlying international exchange rates.

<johnnyanon3000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164889904.381672.16740@l39g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...
If only that was true. It isn't otherwise the insane invasion of Iraq
would never have been launched. Whether or not oil prompted that ghastly
mistake is not the question. The rest of the world would be only too happy
if America always acted in its own interests because its interest almost
invariably coincides with most countries' interests. When it doesn't then
the relevant country is in its turn acting against its own direct interest.
The observation that 'What is good for General Motors is good for America'
can be amended to 'What is good for America is good for all of us'.

<Now you have to figure out how to leave with the country in a much
worse state, and still call it a success

DFM>

It would be stupid for us to "cut and run".

We own Iraq, simpleton, and we're there for several reasons.

One, we are there to insure that the Iraq government that ultimately
comes to power is friendly to the U.S.


Two, we are there to make sure Iraq's oil infrastructure gets on line
so that, combined with the recently online Caspian Sea pipeline, the
Saudi influence over OPEC will be diminished.


Three, in case you missed it, with Afghanistan in the East, our new
Central Asian friends in the North, Iraq in the West and the US Navy to

the South, an unfriendly Iran is completely surrounded.


Four, we are there to have a PERMANENT military foothold in a very
unstable region of the world which unfortunately has an inordinate
amount of the world's fuel - oil. Until we get a viable, alternative
fuel source up and running, it is critical to the GLOBAL economy (not
just the U.S.) that the world's second largest known oil field be
secure.


Welcome to reality

On 30 Nov 2006 05:00:20 -0800, "PJ O'Donovan" <Xentinc@aol.com> wrote:

I see you've joined the "it's all the Iraqi's fault" brigade.

Now you have to figure out how to leave with the country in a much
worse state, and still call it a success.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

"PJ O'Donovan" <Xentinc@aol.com> wrote:

Sadly, I think this is about the most accurate piece Peej has ever
posted. It describes a US foreign policy that is both immoral and
stupid, and that is doomed to fail.

And not a whisper about WMDs or the significance of Israel as the
existing US foothold in the region.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

I believe it has been.

Donna Evleth

Reality??????? Ohboyohboyohboy! How do you plan to insure a friendly Iraq
government? Those guys are doing civil war these days, or haven't you
heard?

Yes, it would be nice to limit Saudi influence over oil, since that was
where most of the 9/11 hijackers came from. It would be even nicer to take
steps to move away from dependence on oil, especially oil coming from
politically unstable regions. I keep asking: why is there no equivalent to
the Manhattan Project of World War II to develop alternative energies?

Who are our new Central Asian friends? If you are thinking of the assorted
dictatorships that inhabit that region, they are not friends, they are
allies of convenience. The minute that convenience ends, they will bail
out.

Donna Evleth
>

"PJ O'Donovan" <Xentinc@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1164895472.732463.200600@l12g2000cwl.googlegr oups.com...
A fine post.

evleth pollution is intolerable !

"Donna Evleth" <devleth@wanadoo.fr> a écrit dans le message de news:
C194DDC6.3EE10%devleth@wanadoo.fr...

"DVH" <dvh@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote in message
news:rDFbh.438$r95.198@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
You have to be ****ing joking, mate. If you believe any of the above you
are a candidate for the same lunatic asylum that peejay resides in.

"John Rennie" <john-rennie@talktalk.net> wrote in message
news:jZWdneIEnrJz3PLYRVnyug@giganews.com...
What is untrue about about it? Why are you so upset with this neat analysis
by PJ?

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:15:06 GMT, "DVH" <dvh@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:

He referred to me as a simpleton for a start. Oh, and what he says is
complete fantasy, and wont ever happen with the current government.
You need some serious fascism to achieve that type of stuff - and that
aint gonna happen any time soon.

A pretty good fantasy though. He's not the only old fart on RTE that
assumes to understand the future.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Frank Clarke wrote:

An ignoramus filter...

--
Dirk

http://www.onetribe.me.uk - The UK's only occult talk show
Presented by Dirk Bruere and Marc Power on ResonanceFM 104.4
http://www.resonancefm.com

On 30 Nov 2006 04:31:44 -0800, johnnyanon3000@hotmail.com wrote:
<1164889904.381672.16740@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups. com>

That's what got Hussein into hot water in the first place. As long as there are
American troops in Iraq, Iraqi oil will be priced in Dollars.


(change Arabic number to Roman numeral to email)

"Dave Frightens Me" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
message news:v0pum2phvi4geqd1qdd2sacp17fdmje53k@4ax.com...
But these aren't predictions, they're a statement of the current facts. I
don't know about whether you're a simpleton or not, but it's somewhat
simple-minded to deny the existence what's in front of your nose.

"DVH" <dvh@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote in message
news:KJIbh.683$iZ2.354@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
Where have you been? What have you read? In what isolated part of the
world do you live?

For your benefit I will destroy point by point PJ's lying fatuous post:


The Americans dare not show their faces in large tracts of Iraq - they don't
own it because the majority of the population of that poor benighted country
does not want them there. The Kurds do but then they have their own
troubles. How can YOU possibly state that such a proposition is 'neat'?

Do YOU see the poor stranded remnants of what we laughingly call a
government becoming MORE friendly to the American occupiers? Do you know
who governs in Iraq. Do you think that poor old PJ knows. He doesn't - he
hasn't a clue. He doesn't even know why America went to war in WWII.

So much for America's best friends (other than the odd bombing raid) in the
Middle East. Pipelines going anywhere through the middle east don't
stand a chance of remaining untouched in what will be an interdetermnate
future. Iraq produces far less oil now than it did under Saddam. Iraqis
have to wait hours in queues before they obtain petrol. We all know why
America invaded Iraq - why even our dim little jiggy knows that. They did
it to protect their oil interests and all they have done by their misguided
adventure is endanger those interests. Every day American troops spend in
Iraq the country feeble infrstructure gets weaker and weaker. It is
falling apart. Surely you know that?

Afghanistan is slowly but surely reverting back to Taliban rule. The
invasion of 2002 was an extremely linited one because as usual not enough
troops were used.





our new
I think here PJ must be referring to the maniac who governs Turkmenistan.
With friends like him you don't need enemies. These Central Asian countries
all have large Muslim populations and even you might be aware that America
has done her best to destroy relations with Muslim countries.


Iraq in the West and the US Navy to
So that's why their President has been shooting off his mouth and
threatening to build his own atomic weapon. If he was completely surrounded
by potential foes he might well have kept his mouth shut. Instead he sees
himself as a rallying point for all that hate America in the middle east.
Iran has been the only country that has profited from this war. America
removed its hated enemy, Saddam Hussein, who defeated Iran with the use of
chemical weapons developed in America and more than one European country.
The majority of Iraq's population are Shias as is the majority of Iran's
population - they are natural allies and now they have a shared enemy.




Do you know what oil field PJ is referring to? He doesn't so why should
we? http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0872964.html
The intention of the most ludicrous invasion America has ever launched was
what? To stabilise Iraq. Do you honestly think Iraq is more stable now
than it was prior to the invasion? Do you think it is more 'secure' now
than it was? IF your answer is 'yes' to these questions then you belong
in the funny house.


PJ's reality is a dream world when America continues to get her way and
where it 'owns' countries - a statement that Adolph Hitler would have been
proud of.

"John Rennie" <john-rennie@talktalk.net> wrote in message
news7mdndIY2-S8S_PYnZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@giganews.com...
You've put your finger right on it, John.

No one can accuse the U.S. of acting in its own best interests in the
invasion of Iraq. Not those who still support that invasion, believing
it was for the Iraqis; not those who oppose that invasion, believing it
served only the interests of terrorism; not Islamic terrorists who believe
the U.S. was acting in Islamic terrorism's best interests in refocusing
her efforts toward Iraq; not the Iraqis who were happy to now fight
each other to the finish; not Islam who welcomed the U.S. as acting
in the best interests of Islam; and not Bush, who intentionally wants
to drive the U.S. into moral and financial bankruptcy.

And certainly not the typical American man in the street.


Planet Visitor II
Official publisher of AADP Official dictionary
http://www.planetvisitor.name/dictionary.html

"Donna Evleth" <devleth@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:C194DBC1.3EE0F%devleth@wanadoo.fr...
Now if you could only pound that fact into the thick skull of
your anti-American mate.


Planet Visitor II
Official publisher of AADP Official dictionary
http://www.planetvisitor.name/dictionary.html

PJ O'Donovan wrote:
And if the idiot Bush hadn't invaded no-one would be fighting
anyone,
would they?

Any sign of all those WMD yet

PJ O'Donovan wrote:
You sound like a gambler who wants to stay and pay in a crooked game
until he's lost all of his money. How long do you suppose the Chinese
would have to stay if they occupied America?

According to Bush, Iraq is a sovereign nation. We don't own it. We're
just sort of renting it at a very expensive price. The utilities aren't
working and there's blood and sewage running in the streets. The only
part of the 167400 square mile property that we "own" is the 4 square
miles in the heavily fortified Green Zone. That's where Bush used to go
when he visited Iraq. Apparently, he doesn't even dare go there
anymore.

I thought our purpose was to establish a democracy. The Iraqi's have a
constitution and they have had an election and most Iraqis support the
attacks on U.S. troops. What do you want to do, force them to like us?

We are there to get the contracts and control their oil and hold back
production in order to keep oil prices high.

Did you ever hear of the "Shiite Crescent"?

We are there to get oil contracts and control production and support
the oil companies with occupation troops and it's not going to work.
Just because the Shiites are religious fanatics that doesn't mean
they're stupid.

Bush isn't facing reality. He's either in denial or he's hoping to
"stay the course" until 2009 and pass the buck onto the next president.